Early Intervention and Special Education Professional Development with Kyle Lee Jones-Sherman

Transcript for Podcast Episode: 228

Early Intervention and Special Education Professional Development with Kyle Jones-Sherman

Hosted by: Mary Barbera

Guest: Kyle Jones-Sherman

Mary: You are listening to the Turn Autism Around Podcast Episode number 228. Today I have a really special guest. Her name is Kyle Lee Jones-Sherman. And Kyle Lee is a board certified behavior analyst. She is a retired special education teacher. She works for the Pattan Pennsylvania Department of Education. Autism ABA supports initiative, previously known as the Verbal Behavior Project. She then found my online toddler course, moved up to the verbal behavior bundle and now is in our Train the Trainer program. So today we are talking all about how to shift as a professional, how to shift your approach to make it more child friendly, to use the four step Turn Autism Around Approach. Just some of the learnings she's had over the past few months since she's entered our courses and communities, she's been very gung ho and I love her insights, and I hope you do, too. So let's get to this really great interview with Kyle Jones-Sherman

Intro: Welcome to The Turn Autism Around podcast for both parents and professionals in the autism world who want to turn things around, be less stressed and lead happier lives. And now your host, Autism mom behavior analyst and bestselling author.

Mary: Dr. Mary Barbara. Okay, Kyle, I am so excited to talk to you today. Thanks for joining us.

Kyle: Thank you, Mary. As you know, I am super excited to be here and it's such a pleasure to meet you face to face. This is exciting.

Mary: And I know we have to meet in person some time, too, because you're only about an hour and a half away from my house. I think so. Before we get started, why don't you tell our listeners and me about your fall into the autism world?

From Retired Special Education Teacher to BCBA in Early Intervention:

Kyle: Sure. So I am currently a retired special education teacher. And I, I want to say I got my BCBA in 2008 and prior to getting my BCBA, I taught all different levels of special education. However, I was always intrigued with the autism program, and the program was attached to the Verbal Behavior Project from Pattan. I just loved it. I was fascinated with it. I adored the teachers that taught it. And after a while I thought, I really want to get involved in that. In this type of programming for students, it just seems so systematic, so supportive, and so probably about seven years ago I switched over to working in autistic support and unfortunately every classroom that I had gone to, it was like the last classroom that the coaches were in from the patent program. So I kept trying to navigate and I finally got there.

Mary: I got placed into a program where they'd actually give support. So what Kyle is talking about is what I refer to as the Pennsylvania Verbal Behavior Project, which I was the lead behavior analyst for the project from 2003 till 2010, when I left to pursue my Ph.D. around the same time, 2010 or 11. The name of the Pennsylvania Verbal Behavior Project changed to the Pennsylvania Autism ABA Supports Initiative. It's the same idea back in 2003. And you know that when you became a behavior analyst, we provided three main things to public school autism, some life skills classes, but mostly autistic support. They were public school classrooms. We provided some training like training with me or training with Dr. Mark Sundberg or those sorts of things. We provided some materials like language builder cards at the time for each student and direct instruction curriculum, and those are VB-Mapp books. And at the time the biggest part of our budget always was on site guided practice by behavior analysts and behavior analysts to be. We usually went in two at a time, one me as a BCBA and then somebody like a BCA, ABA or somebody training to become a BCBA. In the beginning it was a lot of coaching. It was a lot of once a week coaching to the teacher, the Paras, SLPs, the OTS, school bus drivers, cafeteria aides, anybody that would listen, and parents, we would welcome the parents and you know, with an appointment like we weren't a part of the IEP team, but we were definitely support for staff. And in 2003 or four, we were in like 57 classrooms throughout the state of Pennsylvania. I'm not sure what it was up to. It was over a hundred, I think, when I left. And I know over time our on site guided practice, which is very expensive to give, changed and titrated down. But you were there and you did get some support so would you agree that it was a little bit of training, a little bit of materials and then most of it was on site guided practice?

Kyle: Yes, that is exactly how our class is.

Mary: Yes. Yeah. And the reason I'm saying this is because there's people from all over the world listening. And Pennsylvania is a very unique state with this very unique program that's been going on for two decades. I mean, it actually started in 2002, before I got there. So it's been going on for two decades on a huge grant from the Pennsylvania Department of Education, the special ed arm, which is P A T T A N dot net, and it's the Pennsylvania Training and Technical Assistance Network. That's what it stands for. But it's the special ed arm of the Department of Education in Pennsylvania. The reason it got started to begin with was two things. There was a parent up in, I think, Luzerne County and the head of Pat, and at the time was Fran Bornkowski, who did her mentorship to become a BCBA. She was an SLP and she was the head of the whole thing. She became a beekeeper under the mentorship of Dr. Vince Carbone, fun fact. So she and the parent were friendly. They got this whole thing started in 2002 with a little consultation. From Dr. Mark Sundberg and Dr. Jack Michael. And we hit the ground running. We expanded. I mean, I didn't know how to be a consultant. I wasn't even a BCBA. I was taking my boards that fall. When I started, it was very much like flying the plane and building the wings. And a lot of different states have come into Pennsylvania. I don't know if they still do this, but they're pattan.net. It's filled with videos, filled with resources. It's a great project to replicate. I know they've gone to different countries. Many states and other countries have looked at this model. So I don't mean to take up your time because you have so much to say. And I love everything you said. We just spent a few minutes before we hit record. But I think it's good to pass this information along. If you're a parent or professional and you really want to make some headway in your state or even in your school district, I would take a look at the work of the PATTAN (Pennsylvania training and technical assistance network).

Kyle: Yeah, I found it phenomenal. I thought it was awesome. Was happy to be a part of it. Yeah.

Mary: Yes. So you stumbled upon my toddler course. And so can you tell our listeners how that happened?

Parents Recommending My Workshop and Courses to Professionals:

Kyle: Sure. So I was as I was teaching and I was also a behavior analyst and through a supervisor that I had as a teacher in my teaching career. She was also linked to this grant project. And she asked me, Hey, do you know maybe you might be interested in this? It's really awesome. And so I was like, Yeah, sure. So I had an interview with Mr. John McElwee, who hired me, which I'm so thankful for, and I was working with them pre-COVID. And then, of course, over COVID, it stopped and then it started. It got up and running again, the grant program. And what ended up happening is I was really used to school age students, really from kindergarten to the age of 21. I have a 31 year career. So I really, you know, crossed the gamut. However, I never crossed the gamut with early, early learners 0 to 4, and our grant program was 0 to 4. So John spent some time coaching me, which he's wonderful of course. And then my caseload started to grow and I had a parent come in one day and I was, you know, doing my research on what I should, you know, what's a great program for this age group? And the parent came in and she said, Have you ever heard of Mary Barbera? And I said, No. She's like, Well, she's a nurse. And I said, No. She said she was a nurse and she's a parent. And I said, wait on YouTube, because I watch a lot of YouTube videos with behavior analysts. And I said, Yeah, I think I have, actually. And she said to me, like she was fully on board. They were super excited parents. And I was trying to go. But yeah, but, but, but and she said, you could take this free course for about approximately an hour.

Mary: Those are free workshops which are workshop workshops for parents and professionals and they are free, they are at MaryBarbera.com/workshop so depending on if you're a parent or professional older kids or young kids, you can take the right workshop. And the workshop pretty much goes through some of the mistakes people make and action steps you can take. And it also gives you an idea of what joining our course and community would be like because there is definitely an offer for that there. So you took that workshop and did you right away say, yeah, I'm going to take the course.

Kyle: I did! I was like, this is great. Like, this is fabulous, this is fantastic. And I had been receiving through my years as a BCBA, like really high level coaching. It was fantastic. I'm so grateful for the people that coached me along the way. But suddenly this was like a need was met, like this is it. I was like this. And, you know, and I had this idea. I was like, Why am I trying to, like, teach these parents something else? They're already fully on board. Let me get on board with them. And the deeper I took a dive in, it was just one, you know, I think I like going to the toddler course on the weekend, it was just so exciting. I was like, I can't believe this. And then I just dove into other things and more stuff. And I remember being part of the Facebook group and saying, Do you guys do coaching? And your response was like, it was sort of like, hang on, something's in the works. And then I joined. I was invited to join the Train the Trainer program, and I just couldn't be happier. I love it. I have about ten, I call them students for ten early learners that I'm working with. And I also have a practice of supervision for BCBA candidates. And that practice is that I have about 20 candidates and the program that I work for, the company that I work for that contracts me to do that is just super supportive with everything and anything that I bring to them. And you know, of course I've been part of the training program, I'm able to train the parents, I'm able to train the students, I'm able to train the professionals. I'm able to get trained. And I'm able to also take this to my two grandchildren, one who's eight months old and one who's five years old.

Mary: So your grandchildren don't have autism?

Kyle: No, my grandchildren do not have autism.

Mary: So it really isn't about autism. It's about keeping kids engaged with a child friendly approach, increased language and learning skills, increased self-care and independent skills with eating, sleeping, potty training, and then also keeping problem behaviors at bay. If you've got serious problem behaviors, getting them to near zero, if you've just got whining and throwing and tantrums, getting that to zero or near zero, it's just really bringing everything, all the principles we both learned for decades, literally bringing them into a very family friendly approach and an early intervention professional approach. I think you said a lot there. And, you know, the majority of people that take our toddler preschooler course, it's for kids 1 to 5 to help kids, 1 to 5 with or without a diagnosis. Half the parents that introduce themselves in our community do not have an autism diagnosis at that point when they join. And some of them like Katty we can link her hotseat in the show notes but she started out with a child who got evaluated for autism. It was quote unquote just a speech delay and managed to get him pretty much caught up and conversational within a year. And you know, we just have multiple examples of parents of toddlers and preschoolers who made phenomenal progress and I don't think our messaging to early intervention professionals has been as strong as parents. And what would you say to people that say, well, that's really just for parents? I don't I don't know that I want to be in that group talking to parents or, you know, maybe maybe if she created something special for early intervention professionals.

Kyle: Right. Well, I find that I learn so much from parents on the Facebook group. I love reading their testimonials. I feel like we support each other very nicely. I was on a call a few weeks ago that you had where one of the BCBAs was reaching out to the parents and saying, Hey, you know, is there a different way that we could be approaching this with parents like, you know what I'm doing talking to parents that might not be as open? So I feel like it's the best of both worlds just joining together. And we're all here for the same purpose, right? To help our students, our children, the loved ones, people that we pour into all day long like to succeed. And they're succeeding. It's amazing what they're doing. Like they're happy to be at the table. And, you know, I was telling Mary before, like, I have a parent, the parent that introduced me, we're a team. Like, I feel like we are a team like that. Those parents like, no, exactly. For long term services, what to look for. They're able to disseminate the information like there was a company that came to them that was ready and willing to take on their child for long term services, because our grant program is only six months right now. And the mom was just super clear about the dad. They're so clear that they were like, that's not exactly what we're looking for. And they just kept digging and digging because they had the information. So to see parents empowered, professionals empowered to see children empowered, to see myself empowered, it's just a great it's a great experience. I keep thinking I wish I retired sooner. Yeah.

Mary: It doesn't sound like much of a retirement. You're busier than ever.

Check out our FREE Digital Autism Assessment:

Mary Midroll: Hey there. I am breaking into this podcast episode just to make sure that you know about our digital assessment, which is still free and available. And we have made major upgrades. You can get to the free assessment by going to Mary Barbera dot com forward slash assessment. If you have 10 minutes as a parent or professional, you can get scores in three main areas. Self-care and daily activities is the first area. Language and learning skills is a second area and problem behaviors is the third area. We have already had more than 20,000 parents and professionals take the digital assessment. So if you haven't checked it out or if it's been a while, we have. Made major improvements. Go check it out at MaryBarbera.com/assessment. Let's get back to the podcast now.

Train the Trainer, a Beta Test Program Designed for Professionals:

Mary: So now you moved on to the Train the Trainer program, which we just started in March of 2023, on the eight year anniversary of my very first online course for professionals and gung ho parents. We wanted to launch it on March 20th on that date. So that's been going on now and you're a big part of it. I remember seeing you in the Facebook group initially like you had just started. And because your first name is Kyle, it's actually Kyle Lee. But you go by Kyle, too. And I thought you were a man. And I was like, I've never seen an early intervention male teacher in my courses at all, let alone somebody who's just like, Whoa, where does this person come from? I totally let you work with John, who worked on the Verbal Behavior project with me from the very start. So it is taking all of that background. If you know ABA and you know, verbal behavior or if you don't, it's the fast track parents or professionals. But so any new learnings with the Train the Trainer you're in the beta testing group. So we are literally, you know, creating it as we go.

Kyle: Right? So for me personally, you know, probably as a teacher, my experience as a teacher, I like things very systematic and like I have from beginning to end a system I have like on my folder, you know exactly what we're going to do. I have the grant to do an assessment, you know, that they have to kind of take care of to qualify the child to come in. And then I do the online assessment with them. As soon as you know, that's our first session. We talk in detail about that. I'm able to then pull out and write up what the child's strengths are based on the assessment, what their weaknesses are, and then create a plan together with the parents and look for what we're going to, you know, the direction we're going to head. And then I'm able to also create a data sheet based on this information and do like every 15 minute increments because I have the students for an hour and basically, you know, like the parents to I'd like to be a model for the parents, but also explain to them, like, we're only working together for an hour. You can do this every single day, a couple of times a day.

Mary: Do a lot of parents do that?

Kyle: They do. They do their homework assignment often when they come in. I had just recently had an intake and you know the parents for the like floored that their child could sit at the table actually the entire time she was there because she doesn't sit at the table. Her mother is like, no, she doesn't sit still. She doesn't ever do that. But her mom was so prepared. She had everything under the sun of reinforcers at the table. And I said, do your homework assignment a couple times a day. 10 minutes, 15 minutes. Don't let her get stressed. Let it be a lot of fun. And ever so slowly we're going to start to interject some simple demands. So, yeah, it's one of their assignments.

Mary: And one of my big things about my course and my program and this whole Turn Autism Around approach is the importance of table time even for very early learners, even for very young kids. And some people really don't understand that because they don't understand that it's table time, it's just really reinforcement time. It's a combination of natural environment, teaching, manding, pairing, reinforcer, assessment and a little bit because you have a flat surface where you can begin to match an receptive ID and tact things and have a shoe box and have a potato head and quickly move between materials so it doesn't feel like quote unquote work. So what would you say to people who are like early learners? Young kids need floor time. They need all of the child's lead. What would you say?

Why Table Time Works:

Kyle: Well, I have done both and I'm going to share my experience. It's very hard to continually chase a child around the room to get them to label something, for example, like a balloon or like, oh, look, you're out the window. Look, there's a tree, Oh, there's a car. But when you're planned and I found that you can do the same exact stuff that you, that the idea of like playtime on the floor is you can do at the table like following the proximal points, you know, like look saying their name and look joint attention activities, it could all happen at the table. And for me, just as a teacher, it made so much sense. To me because I have worked with kindergartners and I was like, did they learn how to set a table or like at least even be like over by the table or be interested in like all the fun things that are on the table? And so I just found that to be a world of difference. And honestly, in the schools, at least the schools I've been in, you are expected to be over in your area and be able to kind of maintain and practice like it's the foundation of learning. And if they're doing it with low stress filled with fun bubbles, you know, gear games, Mr. Potato Head, bubbles, all of that. It's just a better foundation for when they go to school.

Mary: I've also found that training parents to do it and training new BCBAs, new teachers, seasoned SLPs because you know they might be great at natural environment teaching. I think I'm pretty great at teaching in a natural environment, but to prep, to not become rote, to manage, you know, behaviors, it takes a lot of skill. Whereas if you sanitize the room and have a table, we never force a child to sit. We never, you know, there's no crying. It's running to the table or at least easily coming. And it is just that we can get lots of trials in lots of just engagement that we're not going to get. Like you said, if you're pointing out the window and then they're running and grabbing a cow and, you know, and training of parents and new people, a new RBT, I mean, it's so much more efficient, especially when you come in and use my four step approach where you do the digital assessment like you were talking about and that's still free. MaryBarbera.com forward us pre assessment we just made some major upgrades so if you have not taken the digital assessment with anybody for the past week or two weeks, take it and look at the thank you page. We have all colorful and all individualized. We have a really good system for getting that assessment onto a plan that's individualized. We do like we said, Kyle is in the Train the Trainer, it's the first cohort, it's the beta testing group. It will end in June. Not sure after that. What we're going to do with Train the Trainer. But I would say any professional out there, if you're an early intervention professional. Ages 1 to 5, you definitely want to join the 60 day toddler course and then move up to the verbal behavior bundle. And if you work with older kids, you should definitely join our brand new school age course. Very similar to the toddler sequencing. Still, 60 days make a ton of progress even in kids who have not made progress in months or years. And then when you're done with that after 60 days, move on to the verbal behavior bundle. And we've gotten some flak like, why, why, why can I have unlimited, you know, like lifetime access? Because this is not the kind of procedure or the kind of course that I want you buying and putting on a shelf or not opening it up. This is very action oriented. You get activities, you know, 15 minutes a day. That's all it's going to take for you to not only if you're a parent, change your life. But I would propose that as a professional, these courses and my approach could change your life. Would you agree, Kyle?

Kyle: I would definitely agree. Like I had said before, I just feel like it's confidence all around. I feel I, like, know exactly what I'm doing. I just feel very great about that. And I feel confident and I feel like that is a gift to parents when you feel that confidence, like you're like, No, I really do know what I'm doing from beginning to end. There's no question. I am clear.

Mary: I mean, even if you get something that you have no experience in, you're like, okay, I don't have any experience with that, but let me break it down. Let me assess. Let me check in the group for something, you know, that's not working or something that's a little bit different. Let me reach out to other professionals who probably have seen it. I think somebody just posted the other day and Train the Trainer or said something and I said, I've never seen that. And then Julie Trebet, who lives up your way, who's in Train the Trainer, said she's seen that. And, you know, it's like we're all learning together, which is so great. So in my book and in my course, I talk about enabling and empowering the parent to be the captain of the ship. So what's the role of the professional, Kyle?

Kyle: Our role is to be the wind behind their sails.

Empowering Parents and BCBA Candidates:

Mary: You said that before I started recording and I was like, Oh my God, I love that. So the parent is the "Captain of the Ship" and we as professionals empower them to become captain of the ship by being the "wind beneath their sails". And some parents, you know, they're not going to be like the all in parent who came to you with already purchased the course. They're going to be struggling. They're going to have a lot on their plate. They're not going to be able to fully jump in. But we can still empower them, right?

Kyle: I believe so. Definitely just by supporting them. And, you know, like did you look into this? Did you? What about that? And then just, you know, walking alongside of them until they, too, start to feel more and more confident and ready to take a deeper dive into some knowledge that's really, really you know, it's just profound. It just makes it super easy. I feel like your program just makes things really condensed easy, easy to access. And the more that they can do that and the more that I can support them to do that, I feel really confident in what I'm delivering.

Mary: Yeah. So you do spend a decent amount of your time training and supervising BCBA students. Would you say that they have the same struggles or what are their struggles and how do you think you help them best?

Kyle: Yeah, I sometimes say like when I've been doing my observations or, you know, just in group supervision in general, I find that, you know, similarly they just don't know where to go, like how to start, what direction to go in what, and especially if it's an early learner, What like what do I do? How do I do this? Or you're saying like and it's so easy to say to them, do they have a table? Let's start at the table. And, you know, do they like bubbles? What do they like? And, you know, just building and building and building and then watching them, you know, feel this sense of accomplishment and confidence as they proceed and go for their future and pass their boards and become a BCBA and support families. I mean, the need is just as you know, it's surreal. Like, it's so incredible. And I was telling you before, like in our areas for services, it's a year waiting list. Parents, we don't have time to wait a year. And the more that we can get this out, whether it's through the BCBA candidates, whether it's through practice, seeing ourselves, working with parents, telling even like training, like, for example, my daughter in law worked in a child development center. She doesn't do it anymore. But even training centers like that, you know, that have to take in like, say, early you know, like early learners, like 1 to 4 year olds or 1 to 5 right before kindergarten. But training people, letting them know that, you know, you too can do this and there's support. You know, your book is fantastic to be able to just hand to parents or hand to professionals training people. I feel like I definitely have a message to get out to people.

Mary: And sometimes if parents are overwhelmed or BCBA candidates are overwhelmed they just can't take in a whole book or a course or anything. I like to tell people to search for Mary Autism plus whatever topic. So your immediate struggle like sleep is horrible. Okay, type it Mary Autism, Sleep or Mary autism chewing on toys or eating inedible things or hyperfocus on letters, you know, Is that good? Is that bad? It's called hyperlexia, it's not good or bad, but there are things I would recommend. And so by searching these terms, you'll find video blogs and podcasts that are specific that can meet your immediate needs. So even just starting with, you know, a shoe box, you have a shoe, but here's an extra shoe box. I have like five shoeboxes in my garage right now. I don't want to throw them away because I know it's such an important material. You know, keep your adult size shoeboxes. You know, if you have a grant or you can get a grant for, you know, two sets of dollar store flash cards, you can get parents to print out pictures and use real, real people and real reinforcers. Because once you see progress, I think whether you're a parent or a professional, it's highly motivated to keep going.

Kyle: I'm smiling a little bit. The parent that introduced me to your program has a perfected shoebox. It's a plastic shoebox, and he cut the exact length of a picture to go in and then taped it around perfectly. And I said, I love your shoe box. And his wife said, One day, I said, I love your husband's shoe box. She goes, He'll make you one if you want. I said, okay, so I too have a perfect shoe box.

Mary: That's great. Well, it's been so great to get to know you. I feel like you came upon our course in our program at the very right time. And I feel happy for your supervisees and the parents that you work with now and are going to work with in the future. The more we can get a good child friendly approach that can increase language, decrease problem behaviors, improve self care, the better families will do, the better the professionals will do. And even as taxpayers only we can be happy with more efficient programming, happier kids, less problem behaviors just going to be better for everybody's well-being.

Kyle: I would agree, 100% agree.

Mary: Yeah. So before I let you go, speaking of happiness, part of my podcast goals are not to just help the kids, but help the parents and professionals. So do you have any self-care tips or stress management tools that you use to reduce your stress?

Kyle: Oh, sure. It's funny you say that, because that's exactly what I ask my supervisees all the time, too. But what do you do for self-care? So I joined a local running club. I do that. And I also just joined, say, about a month or two ago for my you know, because I'm in a second career, weightlifting. So I do some weightlifting and spend some time with my grandchildren and really just try to live a quiet, relaxed life. I do what I love.

Mary: Do what you love. I love it. Well, I can't wait to meet you in person some time. Thank you so much for providing such good success with my courses, and I look forward to finishing up the Train the Trainer with you and our the rest of our first class of almost 80 professionals and very gung ho parents. So thanks again and I will see you soon.

Kyle: Okay. Thank you so much, Mary.

Mary: If you're a parent or a professional and I have listened to this whole podcast episode and perhaps many of the podcast episodes, I am here to tell you that your next best step is to most likely join our online course and community. We have a course now for toddlers and preschoolers. We also have a course to help older school aged children who are still struggling with talking tantrums, picky eating, sleeping, potty training and so much more. The course has very similar modules, very similar themes, but different case studies, different examples, different success stories. It is 60 days access. In eight weeks, you can literally turn things around for your family or at your school, in homes, helping families. Either way, it's an amazing community filled with parents and professionals from over 100 countries. I hope you check out all the details at MaryBarbera.com/courses and I hope to see your introduction in our community today.