Speech Delay and Autism in Bilingual Toddlers; How Olga Helped Her Daughter

Transcript for Podcast Episode: 237

Speech Delay and Autism in Bilingual Toddlers; How Olga Helped Her Daughter

Hosted by: Mary Barbera

Guest: Olga M.

Mary: Hi there. This is the Turn Autism Around Podcast Episode number 237. Today we are talking with a mom, Olga, who had her daughter diagnosed with autism at 22 months. She's now four and a half years old. She's made a lot of progress and we're talking about being in a trilingual household, picking a language. We're also talking about her VB-Mapp and how it's filled up now over the past couple of years. We're talking about when it's time to do standardized testing. We're also talking about how even if you have a baby map, the advantage of taking my digital assessment and turning it into a plan, which right now it's still free at MaryBarbera.com/assessment. Yeah it's a great conversation. At the end I talk about things that I would do with a child who's conversational or almost conversational. There's a couple tips I give at the end and one tip that Olga I'd never heard before and I really haven't talked about before, so you don't want to miss the tip at the end. And yeah, let's get to this really great show with Olga.
Intro: Welcome to the Turn Autism Around podcast for both parents and professionals in the autism world who want to turn things around, be less stressed and lead happier lives. And now your host, Autism mom, behavior analyst and bestselling author, Dr. Mary Barbera.

Mary: Alright, Olga, it is so nice to have you here today. Thank you for your time.

Olga: Thank you, Mary. I'm excited. Yeah.

Mary: The day I just saw you on a Q&A call and you seem to have a great story, and I thought listeners would really like to hear your story about picking a language because you live in a trilingual household with three different languages going. And also hear how your daughter made a ton of progress and filled up her VB-Mapp and all that stuff that we're going to get to. But before we do that, why don't you take 2 minutes and just tell our listeners and me about your fall into the autism world?

Olga M. and Her Daughter, Allie’s, ASD Diagnosis

Olga: Yes. So it happened when my daughter was diagnosed with autism. She was 22 months old. And she was like a pretty, pretty happy child. Just like with speech delay. I was concerned. And I was always like, as other participants were saying, like the same story. We were talking with a pediatrician and they said, Oh, she's good. She has wonderful, wonderful eye contact and she is smiley and happy. So just wait, wait, wait. But I was kind of nervous because she didn't make any progress, although she was pretty happy and smiley. So we decided to kind of follow that child to go and talk to the developmental pediatrician. And she was diagnosed.

Mary: Was that a long wait, though, Because you're in Massachusetts, you said.

Olga: Yes. Yes, that's correct. It was a pretty pretty long wait. I think we were waiting like about. Seven months before she was seen.

Mary: Then what did they blame it on the fact that you were speaking a bunch of different languages?

Olga: Oh, not necessarily, no. They didn't blame but They were kind of like, okay, it may be because you guys speak several languages at home. But then they were not kind of like, Sure. All in one day, just.

Mary: Okay, so you got the diagnosis and she was 22 months old.

Olga: And then. Well, I was horrified by that because I didn't look, I heard about autism, but I wasn't sure what it is like what to do if you have someone diagnosed with it. So, like, I started all the research, and then we found this. She was young, so she had to go to 0 to 3 programs. And I found the program. They got all my information and we were waiting for the placement for someone to come and start services. But then the call came and it went like a whole different story. We had to wait. They didn't have people there then. They were not able to come. And I was like, again, I was worried about what I should do. How can I help my child? I was Googling like crazy, and I found your course.

Starting The Turn Autism Around Approach Post Diagnosis

Mary: Yeah, it's amazing. Like, I would love to know what people are googling that actually leads them my way because you think it's easy to find people like me, but it's actually, you know, there's just so much information out there about autism.

Olga: So actually, I can say it took me a while. It took me a while to find you. And the funny part is when I first looked at your website, I was thinking, Hmm. Is she legit? Because believe it or not, there are a lot of things that claim they are helping kiddos with autism, and it's just like a waste of money and a waste of time.

Mary: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It reminds me of Michelle C. 's Story and Michelle is one of our online coaches now, but she found us during COVID right when the world shut down. Her daughter was diagnosed in February of 2020. She found my course in March and she actually told me that she bought my course. She didn't tell my husband because she thought it might be a scam. And she was like, Well, there's a 14 day money back guarantee, so I'll just take it. I won't tell him if it's crap, I'll, you know, return it. But then within 33 days, she got her daughter from like two words to 500 words. And like her story, we can link her show in the podcast show notes for this episode. This is 237, I believe. Yeah. So, okay, so you got her diagnosed and at that point, was she saying some words?

Olga: So initially, even before diagnosis, I believe she started actually saying words really early. I think she was three or four months old. Wow. First said momma. And I was thinking, oh, we're going to have an early speaker in the family. And then she gave probably about 8 to 10 words like random, like Mama Dada Baba, and something like some others are like, I don't remember much for now, but like around like 8 to 10 words. And then after one while she lost a few. And this is like when I got concerned and like, so she had all those words and now we came back to five. So this is when I start kind of like researching and being worried and talking to people, to her doctor. But then when we started your course. So she kind of like I mean, it took me a while to gain her echoic control when she started repeating after me. And then it was like one syllable out of like two syllable words. Like she was like she got like really, really a lot of words where she was talking just speaking one syllable at a time. And then kind of like after maybe like a few months, she finished. So she was finishing the whole word. Maybe she was losing one consonant here and there. But yeah, like when, when we found your courses and we started table time and working constantly, she did like, like I would amaze how progress went up like I can literally see like she basically started from nothing to a lot of things.

Mary: Yeah. So let's back up a minute, because in the intro, I said, you're a trilingual family. So the languages are English, Russian, Georgian. It's the country. Georgia. Yeah. So, you know, I have done a video blog and a podcast on bilingualism and which language you should choose. And when I said, Did the doctor blame it on the fact that you were speaking multiple languages? Not that there's you know, there's just a lot of controversy and unknown. And I don't know exactly what to do with a bilingual or trilingual family, you know, like especially if I never met them and I don't know, you know, the child's ability levels or the parents, you know, culturally. And but I do usually recommend that if you have a child with no words or minimally vocal to pick the language that the therapists are going to speak in and the school is going to do, and like you're in Massachusetts and you're there to stay, at least for the foreseeable future, so that there's other people in other countries that are more transient, too. So can you tell our listeners and me about your decision to pick a language and what that language was? And if you had, like my advice in the back of your head or other people's advice.

Bilingual and Trilingual Autism Families

Olga: Yes. So I looked at all your podcasts and interviews where you're talking about bilingual or multilingual families and what your suggestions are. So I knew exactly that. You suggested speaking in the language where the child will be raised like the language that they will mainly use. But at the same time my husband researched some articles where people were saying that if you teach them multiple languages at an early time, that's good for their brain development. So he brought that. I brought your concept, but at the same time, the other problem was that the majority of our family, because my side of the family, everybody speaks Russian, his side of the family everybody speaks Georgian. Only me and him can speak fluently in English, maybe like not fluently, not as fluently as people who were born and raised here. Right? Right. To a certain extent. But our parents, they're not able to communicate in English to her. So we decided as a family to pick a language where the majority of the family can communicate with her. And that language was Russian. But at the same time, my husband, because he and his family are the only people who can speak Georgian, I honestly don't know Georgian, so shame on me.

Mary: So anybody that speaks more than one language I take my hat off to because, you know, I only speak one language. So I know the research is clear that you speak multiple languages early on. Should should be a benefit, not a problem. However, in my experience with kids that are non vocal or with autism, you have to start somewhere. You have to start with single words, single syllables. And like I just find that if you can even get the first 100 words in, in the language where the interventionists are going to come and the school is going to be can be a springboard. But go ahead, back to your story. So you picked your Russian.

Olga: My husband was talking Georgian to her. He never finished. So he's talking Georgian with her even now but at something.

Mary: Helped to pick Russian, right?

Olga: Yeah. But at the same time we didn't stop learning English either. So it wasn't like, oh we only speak Russian but no English at all. No, we were speaking English here and there with her as parents, not to the extent of Russian, obviously, because many more people were able to speak Russian to her and only me and my husband could speak English to her. But at the same time, all her services and school, all of those people speak in English to her.

Mary: So when you did like table time and you said pig, pig, pig, was that in English or in Russian?

Olga: So I actually in the beginning I did the table time in Russian, okay, only in Russian to kind of like start her language going. And now when I'm doing table time, which I'm doing only in English because she is conversational in Russian really so. She answers questions. She asks questions. She speaks these sentences in Russian. In English. Her receptive, definitely better than her....

Mary: Expressive.

Olga: Expressive language. So right now we're doing everything in English with her.

Mary: Okay, well, that's amazing. And she's how old now?

Olga: So she's four.

Mary: Wow. About four and a half, right?

Olga: Yeah, Well, close to five.

Mary: So, I mean, being four and a half. And speaking basically two languages, conversational Russian and almost conversational English is amazing. Especially when we're only talking a few years of therapy and you know, a lot of credit goes to you and your whole family, but you were the one that took the courses and spearheaded and became what I like to call the captain of the ship. Do you feel like the captain of the ship?

Olga: I do. And I don't at the same time, because like a lot of things, I feel that I don't know yet because I feel like the more a child that's progressing in that field, the more you have to learn how to teach kiddos like that.
Mary: It gets harder to teach the intermediate learner those kinds of skills. There's very few people in the whole world that know how to teach a child. You know, prepositions intraverbal webbing. Pronouns feature function classes like it gets complicated. And then we also have to worry about teaching showering, teaching independence with dressing. And then it's. Did you have, like, problem behaviors along the way, too? Or has she always been a pretty happy character?

Allie’s Strengths and VB-Mapp

Olga: She has always been a pretty happy child. Well, she has some cries here and there, but nothing outrageous like a toddler of her age, like pretty neurotypical that we never had any problems with problem behavior. Never. Right. Wow. Fully potty trained again. Thank you. And your courses. Because I was following the protocol. I think it started like twice. And then after the second time, we just finished it all. And thank God it went really well. Yes. That's another thing that I want to say. Thank you. Specifically, thank you for that. Because like, among all other things that you Mary, came up and put in your courses, this is like a really important thing that you put on your course is how to potty trained and to all other mamas. And dads and parents over there. Don't be disgraced if you start and it's not going right away. Just give it the time because this is what happened to us. When we started it didn't go well, so we decided to wait a little bit and then restarted. And we pushed till then. And now, thank God she's fully potty trained.

Mary: Yeah. Pottying, I think I have a special knack for potty training because I was. I am a registered nurse, but I was a registered nurse for since the mid eighties. I know I sound so old and I always worked in the neuro field with adults who had, you know, strokes and head injuries and spinal cord injuries. And so incontinence and toilet training was a big part of my job as a nurse, as a rehab nurse and a neuro nurse and as a nurse manager. And so. When I had two kids, though, one with autism, one without. I didn't know how to potty train. But, you know, I was very comfortable with toileting. And then I became a behavior analyst and developed my own child friendly way to potty train. And you're right, Like, some people have to have false starts to potty train. And we would love to get people in potty training successful and within a week or a month or a couple of months be totally potty trained. But like you said, sometimes you start and it doesn't work out. And, you know, maybe you started too young, maybe you don't. You know, it is something that requires a lot of your attention and your work, you know, having the right supplies, having the schedule, setting a timer, having extra drinks, having reinforcement and collecting data of some sort. You have to get to the finish line because a lot of people are like, well, they kind of go, but it's kind of a mess. And if, you know, she's on a schedule or she goes to camp or she is not toilet trained at night. And constipation can also be a huge issue that I learned over the years and we did a really good episode. We can link in the show notes with Dr. Steven Hodges, who's an M.D., a doctor, a urologist, pediatric urologist, who is a Pee doctor, but his whole practice is about constipation, and that is the number one cause of issues. So I'm really glad that you got her potty trained. But the courses and the strategies that I give here and in my book and the courses and everything is, is one step, but you actually have to do the work. So great job getting that done because that is the number. You know, you can have a filled up VB-Mapp and a conversational kid, but if they have problem behaviors or toileting struggles or whatever, they may not be able to be in the inclusive environment that we want them to be in.

Olga: Yes. Yes. Yeah. So we could also bring them to their problem because they are not happy. If they cannot go, if they are constipated, they would feel something. Maybe they cannot explain what they feel. Right. That also can influence their behavior.

Mary: Right. And I know a lot of behavior analysts are still using toilet training in a day, which is a 1972 book or something like that by Fox and Asrin, which was very helpful to me in the 1990s and 2000s. But that book, if anybody's still using it, really has a lot of punishment involved. And, you know, not punishment like spanking kids and stuff, but punishing procedures that I don't agree with. You know, I want a child friendly, very positive approach. And even with potty training.

Olga: Yes 8 positives to every negative.

Mary: Positive, every negative. Got it across the board for everybody. Okay. Let's move on to the VB-Mapp, which you have given us permission to include your daughter, Allie's baby map in the show notes. And it's a beautiful VB-Mapp. It's all filled up. It's all you know, I mean, there might be a couple little holes, but for those of you new to the VB-Mapp, the first level is 0 to 18 months. Typical development. And then the second level is 18 months to 30 months. And the third level is 30 months to 48 months. And so Allie's right there. And I think it's also important to note she's got a couple holes in the social column, but other than that, she's great. And I also think it's important to pull out that I use the VB-Mapp in the verbal where we have a bundle of courses, you know how to do it, how to program, how to program for all those higher intermediate issues that I talked about earlier. But it's also important, I think, because I created this digital assessment, which also gave us permission to use and teach people, and I'm continuing to teach people how to make a plan based on that assessment. And even people in my courses, they're like, Oh, we've got to be VB-Mapp, we're good. And it's like, you could stare at a VB-Mapp that's all filled up or halfway filled up all day long and not be able to quickly hone in on the strengths and needs of the child and to make a quick plan. So we also have permission to publish this digital assessment, which, as for those of you that haven't heard of it, is still free. MaryBarbera.com/Assessment takes 10 minutes. Mostly parents fill it out. If you're a professional, you may want to work with the parent directly and fill it out together. If you don't, you may not know the answers like how they sleep and how they dress and those kinds of things. So you might need the parent input to fill it out. It's based on the one page assessment on page 49 of Turn Autism Around book too. So you could also use that and do the interview. But Allie's scores. This is actually really nice for me to see because you know my assessment is not standardized yet you know we just came out with it, just created in 2022. I'd love it to have research behind it. I'd love it to have, you know, more standardization for sure. But even when you're looking at I remember Chinos, Mom was on the podcast. We can link that in the show notes. But one of my clients, Chino, who ended up becoming bilingual, that was a big issue for them in Spanish and English, but Chino had a VB-Mapp that was halfway filled and he also had standardized language testing done, which showed really good correlation, you know, between the two. Michelle C, we wrote a white paper, me and my mentor, Dr. Rick Kabina, we can link that to. And that showed very poor language when she started the course and her language sample and then a couple months later. So I feel like whenever we can compare, say, the VB-Mapp to either standardized language testing or to the scores on the digital assessment that you receive, which is her scores are 100% in self care and daily activities, 86% in language learning skills and 90% in problem behaviors, scores over 85% really are not an issue. So it's nice to see that comparison. So any other things you want to say about the assessment before we move into the plan?

Olga: Just a little bit about the VB-Mapp. So her first VB-Mapp score was done after I was using your program. So you know how you sometimes show in your courses skills which have like a little scattered first assessment. You know I think like if people would look at my daughter a sweeping map and they would see all their progress assessment like almost everything was filled. So this is because we already were doing and working using your strategies. Yeah. So it's not the first time she had a very minimal language and skills. So that assessment was after we were already working with your courses. And then regarding the one page assessment, I just want to mention that it's really good to do that even if you have the VB-Mapp, because we've been that from my point of view, showed you kind of like visually where it is and like if you need to work hard on certain areas, but the one page assessment can give you exact structure of how and what you should do immediately. Because as the same way as you said, like if your child has really bad behaviors, then why would you do something like, I don't know, like higher like language if, you know, has that behavior and you have to fix it first or like they don't eat, you have to kind of like work on that, work on their behavior. And then when they are happy, you can start teaching them at the table. It really gives you some structure to kind of look at how you look. What could you address first and then everything else? So I really encourage people to do that because it's very helpful even for Allie. Even for Allie, when I did this one page assessment recently that you will provide in the notes and the plan is right now. So if you look at my plan, there are a lot of things there. It's not like, Oh, but her VB-Mapp is pretty good. But I still have a lot of things in the plan that we are working on right now. So if someone can look at her VB-Mapp and say, Oh, it's good, why would you work on something? That's wrong. She still has a lot of things to work out.

Advanced Learner Tips and Covered Services

Mary: And a lot of insurance companies require VB-Mapp, so they require mind lands. They require other things. Obviously, nobody's requiring my digital assessment, which used to be the one page plan assessment is now digital, which is much better now because you get scores which you can see then changes. But with a VB-Mapp looking like this, I imagine that your daughter is having problems continuing services are they?

Olga: She will graduate next month.

Mary: Okay. And how do you feel about that?

Olga: Not very happy because well, it helps her. It helps her to do things, to operate, to learn.

Mary: What kind of services does she get now that are going to stop.

Olga: So the ABA services.

Mary: And how many hours a week or is that at home or school or clinic?

Olga: So it's in-home maybe 4 hours per week. This is what she currently is.

Mary: That's it. 4 hours per week.

Olga: Yeah. She used to have like 30, 35 hours per week when she was younger.

Mary: Okay.

Olga: And then basically the last year, year and a half, they switched her to like basically she's having 2 hours, two days a week. So 2 hours, one day, 2 hours, another day. And yeah. And she also has her services through school because she's in a preschool, those shoes on IEP. So those services she will continue to receive through school.

Mary: Okay. So she continues to receive the IEP services at school. Is that a typical preschool or is that for kids with.

Olga: No, it's a typical preschool.

Mary: Which is great. So I don't know your daughter and we want to go on with the plan, but when you have a child who has a filled up VB-Mapp, it is important that they especially if they're four or five and a filled up VB-Mapp. I mean, they're very close to typical. She's conversational in Russian and almost conversational in English. So it's important to make sure she's in typical settings, even if she needs a little bit of support or an IP. I also recommend the standardized speech testing once a year to make sure that she is, you know. Keeping up that there aren't any holes because her language is really going to be important for academics, for reading, for math or, you know, socialization as she gets older and as she gets older, you as the parent, unless you decide to homeschool her, you know, indefinitely, you lose a lot of that control of what they're teaching or how they're teaching her. But she looks to be in great shape. So let's just talk about the plan quickly before we wrap up. So in other podcasts and everywhere I talk, I talk about the digital assessment, which then you get a one page plan printed out. It spills over into the second page, you get your scores, and then you go down the left hand column in the middle column and the end column and create your strengths and needs. Olga even joined My Train the Trainer program, which just finished up to learn how to do this more systematically. I don't know. Oh boy, if you're planning on helping other families. But you know, a big part of our train, the trainer was just to get these procedures to be, you know, spread to the next person. But we checked them. We developed rubrics so that it doesn't sound that hard. Okay, take the page, go down to the left, you know, but there are nuances and each child is a little bit different. So we do that. So if we get down to sleep and she has no sleep issues, just say then a strength would be that she sleeps through the night. And so we're not going to go through all her strengths and needs, but some of the needs that pop out on this planning form, which we're going to put in the show Notes podcast 237. So MaryBarbera.com for us. 237 She is a little bit of a picky eater and she might whine when she needs to try a new food. So for that I would definitely recommend the easy medium difficult food list and we can link that in the show notes, needs to learn more vocabulary for tacting and work on functional phrases and WH questions and sometimes has issues with sharing toys. But, you know, overall we're really just keeping her around, typical peers treating anything we see, you know, getting her fully fluent in English, which should be doable. There's also something that I probably never mentioned in any of my podcasts, but with one of the little girls who's in the intermediate learner course, which is part of the bundle, she was kind to this point. It's like, okay, so what are we going to do? So when you get to the top of the VB-Mapp, if you still have language problems. Language for learning is a good curriculum to look at. If they're too high in that language for thinking. Usually we go from language learning to language for thinking. Some kids can go directly into language for thinking, and then even language for writing and reasoning comes next. I mean, you'd be amazed, like there might be holes. And that's why I like standardized speech testing. The other easy thing to do is the book program. I have a bonus video in my courses and that is, you know, just go to the library, get some books out, return them every week, take out new books, and then basically do natural environment teaching. I have a whole procedure on how to use books, but the book program is big. And then the topic of the game, which is this one I really haven't talked about. But you know, if kids are flexible with a variety of topics, you could put, you know, sports, summer on sticky notes or on little pieces of paper. You know, maybe she really loves Disney movies. Maybe, but things she loves and things that she doesn't necessarily love, like gardening or, you know, something you love going to school, summer break, and you can put these on a little piece of paper and we call it the topic game where she picks out, okay, sports. I like the Phillies, you know, or have you ever been to a football game? And you know just doing some conversational work with the topic game is a good little tip that I've used for kids that are you know, I don't even like to say high functioning. But in this case, I mean, she is really doing well and she's using language well and, you know, give her support if she needs it. Paid support. I know it's always sad and scary when your services are going to stop. You get attached to people and everything. But, you know, I went over a program for her. I went over, you know, getting overly too much therapy, you know, like it's got to be the right support. And then you just have to let her go and fly her wings.

Olga: Yes, I agree.

Mary: I know it's hard, Mama. All right. Before we ask you your last question, any final thoughts or comments? Questions?

Olga: Just thank you. Thank you for your courses for all your work that you're doing. It's really tremendous for families.

Mary: Oh, well, that's. It's great when I bet you on just asking a question. I was like, I want you on the podcast. You are amazing to help your little girl transform. You know, over the last couple of years during COVID, it's, you know, COVID has been a real hardship on so many people. But in a lot of ways there are some blessings and so we'll take it. All right. Before I let you go, part of my podcast goals are not to just help the kids, but help the parents and professionals listening. So do you have any self-care tips or stress management tools that you use to be less stressed and lead a happier life?

Olga: Probably take time for yourself because we as parents are always stressed about everything, about our kids, about our life in general. So I think it's important to, especially when you're seeing everything going wrong, Oh my God, I will never have an exit out of this situation. Just take a step back, take a deep breath, take some time for yourself. If you need to get out of the house, just ask your husband. If you don't have a husband, ask your family. If you don't have family, ask your friends to kind of like sit down with your child, look for them for maybe a couple hours, and just take those couple hours for yourself to relax, to breathe, to enjoy what you like. And if you like to read, just read those 2 hours. If you like to go somewhere, just go and enjoy and then come back energized and push forwards.

Mary: Love that! Alright, Olga, it's been a real pleasure getting to know you and good luck. I'm sure your daughter is going to do well in the future, thanks to you and yeah, have a good one.

Olga: Thank you very much, Mary. Have a great day.

Mary: If you're a parent or a professional and have listened to this whole podcast episode, perhaps many of the podcast episodes, I am here to tell you that your next best step is to most likely join our online course and community. We have a course now for toddlers and preschoolers. We also have a course to help older school aged children who are still struggling with talking tantrums, picky eating, sleeping, potty training and so much more. The courses have very similar modules, very similar themes, but different case studies, different examples, different success stories. It is 60 days access in eight weeks. You can literally turn things around for your family or at your school, in homes, helping families. Either way, it's an amazing community filled with parents and professionals from over 100 countries. I hope you check out all the details at MaryBarbera.com/courses and I hope to see your introduction in our community today.